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Post by crosstimbersokie on Jul 25, 2013 23:55:56 GMT -5
In over 30yrs working for TDCJ I've seen unions come and go. NONE of them did shit. They took our money, and that's about it. I went to one of the first union meetings that happened down in Galveston back in '83. Unions may have clout in other states. Here in Texas they are just a bunch of neutered money grabbers. They don't do a damn thing here. They NEVER have. And, it don't have a damn thing to do with courage. The only thing, or way, that I've seen things happen to change TDCJ's actions or policy's has been through court litigation. That's all they understand, court litigation. It happened when the sergeants got all their overtime pay. It happened when the females got equal treatment. And, it's happened on a few other labor issues involving time, over time, and time keeping. The courts are what TDCJ listens too, NOT UNIONS. If you don't have the right to strike then you don't have any power. I beg to differ. In the feds we don't have the right to strike, but ask any supervisor or manager if we don't have power. There are many more tools in the toolbox besides work stoppages. And in regard to public safety, work stoppages are the worst things that can be done for a number of reasons.
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Post by crosstimbersokie on Jul 26, 2013 0:03:31 GMT -5
I would also point out that with several liberal states, who's state employee's are unionized, going nearly bankrupt and trying to do away with state employee pentions, the state of Texas will probably NOT allow their state employee unions to have any clout. And, quite frankly, our pension plan is sound. And, the latest legislative session has taken steps to make it more actuarially sound. Whereas, in those states with unionized state workers, their pension plans it seems may not be as sound as ours. We actually contribute to our plans, whereas some of those states do not. It's been a bit of a topic in political circles in Texas. Bankruptcies are mainly caused by municipal and county pensions. Those are the levels of government with the legal ability to negotiate their salaries and benefits by contract. It has to do with the corporate nature of those governments, which resemble private corporations in many ways in the legal sense. With state governments and the federal government (sovereign governments), employees can't strike and can't negotiate their pay and benefits through contract negotiations. Those are set by the legislatures and the executives. There are states where the legislatures have gone overboard with the benefits, but they are nothing compared to city & county governments around the country.
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 1:48:32 GMT -5
Fella's, I don't know if the unions fronted any money for any of the court cases I mentioned. Hell, the Coble case(where the ladies got their equal employment rights in TDCJ) wasn't fronted by the union to my knowledge. And, the case where the sgt's got all of their overtime back, I don't recal ever hearing about the union doing anything at all about that. It was some employee's who took the state to task and filed on them. In fact, I'd challenge ya'll to provide proof that the unions, any union, fronted any money for any court case against TDCJ. I'd love to read about it.
I am a member of the TPEA. I like them. They have paid lobbyists for state employee's. Plus, they aren't arrogant. I got turned off to unions real quick in that meeting back in '83. The fella running the meeting was an arrogant sob. He tried telling me I would be some kind of scab if I worked and they wanted to strike. Ya'll may think I'm a nut. But, I told that arrogant feller to kiss my ass, and I walked out of the meeting.
I wasn't a member of any organization until about 10 or 12 years ago when Warden Fred Becker had a chat with me. He convinced me to join TPEA. I've been a member of that organization ever since. I get a nice news letter keeping me informed of issues. I like them.
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 2:00:10 GMT -5
I would also point out that with several liberal states, who's state employee's are unionized, going nearly bankrupt and trying to do away with state employee pentions, the state of Texas will probably NOT allow their state employee unions to have any clout. And, quite frankly, our pension plan is sound. And, the latest legislative session has taken steps to make it more actuarially sound. Whereas, in those states with unionized state workers, their pension plans it seems may not be as sound as ours. We actually contribute to our plans, whereas some of those states do not. It's been a bit of a topic in political circles in Texas. Bankruptcies are mainly caused by municipal and county pensions. Those are the levels of government with the legal ability to negotiate their salaries and benefits by contract. It has to do with the corporate nature of those governments, which resemble private corporations in many ways in the legal sense. With state governments and the federal government (sovereign governments), employees can't strike and can't negotiate their pay and benefits through contract negotiations. Those are set by the legislatures and the executives. There are states where the legislatures have gone overboard with the benefits, but they are nothing compared to city & county governments around the country.Ok, so tell me again how unions will be effective at changing TDCJ. Sounds like you're making my point for me. It takes legislative action to affect change. Or, it takes judicial action. While I have heard a certain AFCSE rep claim he made lots of change through the legislature, I question just how effective the unions really are in changing the minds of legislators here in Texas. Unions have no negotiating power. And, the term "UNION" tends to illicit some resistance I think from legislators. In a conservative legislative body how many legislators want to be seen as working with a liberal/democratic union. I think they respond much better to employee associations like the TPEA. They know the TPEA will advocate for us, without threatening anyone about striking, or sick outs, or walk outs, or what have you. So, again, I'm basing my opinion of unions on experience. And, my observations. Both tell me that unions are ineffective here in Texas. That could always change. But, for the past 30yrs I haven't seen them do anything of value.
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 2:14:47 GMT -5
Guys, one of the specific states I was thinking of who is having fiscal troubles, and has a strong state employee union is Wisconsin. That is where I'm from, and have many family members living. It's been a topic of discussion between me and some family up there. Some are for unions, some are not. Makes for interesting phone conversation sometimes. But, if you read carefully, you'll see that employee's who are members of the union work under a contract negotiated by the union with legislators. And, the contract must be followed, and renegotiated at the end of the term of the contract. Also read closely, and see that unionized workers will have to wait for the proposed pay raise until their contract is renegotiated. They aren't eligible for the voted on pay raise. Sorta shot themselves in the foot so far. We'll have to see how negotiations go. It's an interesting read, and something I enjoy following. Here in Texas, Unions have ZERO negotiating power. We do NOT work under a contract. This will NOT change in the near future. Here is the link to a recent article of some of their troubles. www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/state-union-workers-will-have-to-wait-for-1-raise-b9961851z1-216947971.html
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 2:20:08 GMT -5
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 2:34:06 GMT -5
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Post by mley1 on Jul 26, 2013 2:49:36 GMT -5
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Post by srb on Jul 26, 2013 11:21:50 GMT -5
I don't care much for Unions anymore and quit AFSCME many years ago. I didn't join TPEA because I was written up a year and a half into employment and they didn't handle disciplinary issues, or any other outside of lobbying. I went with TSEU/CWA, and although they couldn't help me, because I wasn't a member, they could have. If there had been post orders back then I believe I wouldn't have been written up.
So Unions do have a purpose, as TDCJ doesn't always act honestly or fairly as there own policies state and employees can't rely on the administration to put their best interests to the legislature. It's when the membership gets greedy and the politicians pander for their votes that things get out of control.
As far as the lawsuits you mentioned, I was around for most of them and know a little. I wasn't involved so have no detail. I was a union steward for a short time, and didn't like defending bad officers. There were few. I was very active until I left Huntsville and know the union was very involved in those cases. The best way to find out more about their involvement is through their Austin office. Not much was discussed in Huntsville. I was also around during the AIDS scare, and know how that split the union membership and got ASCME involved.
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Post by bobothebeaten on Jul 26, 2013 13:49:36 GMT -5
If you don't have the right to strike then you don't have any power. I beg to differ. In the feds we don't have the right to strike, but ask any supervisor or manager if we don't have power. There are many more tools in the toolbox besides work stoppages. And in regard to public safety, work stoppages are the worst things that can be done for a number of reasons. You have to have Executive Leadership willing to follow the rules even when mid level management doesn't. Our problem here is that mid level management will violate the rules and Executive Leadership won't hold them accountable. When a disciplinary is initiated it's a fight right from the very beginning until the end. Usually, things aren't righted until you've complained outside the agency and bring in either Texas (EEOC) or the feds. Our own EEO is led by a guy who was run off by another state (Nebraska) for boinking one of his staff. Why would anyone expect complaints to him be taken seriously?
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Post by njblu72 on Jul 26, 2013 19:01:25 GMT -5
I GIVE Up!!!!!! YOU GUYs are just Not Getting the Point, So I hope you wake up one day and get the money training and Respect you guys deserve!!!!
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Post by crosstimbersokie on Jul 26, 2013 20:14:18 GMT -5
Bankruptcies are mainly caused by municipal and county pensions. Those are the levels of government with the legal ability to negotiate their salaries and benefits by contract. It has to do with the corporate nature of those governments, which resemble private corporations in many ways in the legal sense. With state governments and the federal government (sovereign governments), employees can't strike and can't negotiate their pay and benefits through contract negotiations. Those are set by the legislatures and the executives. There are states where the legislatures have gone overboard with the benefits, but they are nothing compared to city & county governments around the country.Ok, so tell me again how unions will be effective at changing TDCJ. Sounds like you're making my point for me. It takes legislative action to affect change. Or, it takes judicial action. While I have heard a certain AFCSE rep claim he made lots of change through the legislature, I question just how effective the unions really are in changing the minds of legislators here in Texas. Unions have no negotiating power. And, the term "UNION" tends to illicit some resistance I think from legislators. In a conservative legislative body how many legislators want to be seen as working with a liberal/democratic union. I think they respond much better to employee associations like the TPEA. They know the TPEA will advocate for us, without threatening anyone about striking, or sick outs, or walk outs, or what have you. So, again, I'm basing my opinion of unions on experience. And, my observations. Both tell me that unions are ineffective here in Texas. That could always change. But, for the past 30yrs I haven't seen them do anything of value. Repeatedly I hear tales on here and that other message board about supervisors and managers violating agency policy, state, and federal law for various reasons. With an effective union watching what they do they are not nearly as bold or flippant about following the rules. We are talking about two separate issues. 1. Benefits and pay. 2. The integrity of the agency. With regard to #1 it's as it should be; the People's representatives creating the conditions under which government employees work. Unions as well as any group or citizen have access to their representatives provided their representatives have integrity. With regard to #2 government bureaucracies are free to run roughshod over people, and often do regardless of the rules they are mandated to follow. That's where a government employee union can be effective through law suits, arbitrations, reports to prosecutors and regulatory agencies, reports to elected representatives, and reports to the media. But, it's all moot if you don't have a high degree of unity among employees--a union.
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Post by crosstimbersokie on Jul 26, 2013 20:18:21 GMT -5
But, if you read carefully, you'll see that employee's who are members of the union work under a contract negotiated by the union with legislators. And, the contract must be followed, and renegotiated at the end of the term of the contract. Also read closely, and see that unionized workers will have to wait for the proposed pay raise until their contract is renegotiated. They aren't eligible for the voted on pay raise. Sorta shot themselves in the foot so far. We'll have to see how negotiations go. It's an interesting read, and something I enjoy following. I've never heard of a situation in which state legislators negotiate with unions over pay and benefits. In the feds, Oklahoma, Missouri and Kansas the union and agency negotiate over working conditions while pay and benefits are strictly the realm of the legislature & governor.
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Post by crosstimbersokie on Jul 26, 2013 20:22:13 GMT -5
I beg to differ. In the feds we don't have the right to strike, but ask any supervisor or manager if we don't have power. There are many more tools in the toolbox besides work stoppages. And in regard to public safety, work stoppages are the worst things that can be done for a number of reasons. You have to have Executive Leadership willing to follow the rules even when mid level management doesn't. Our problem here is that mid level management will violate the rules and Executive Leadership won't hold them accountable. When a disciplinary is initiated it's a fight right from the very beginning until the end. Usually, things aren't righted until you've complained outside the agency and bring in either Texas (EEOC) or the feds. Our own EEO is led by a guy who was run off by another state (Nebraska) for boinking one of his staff. Why would anyone expect complaints to him be taken seriously? Excellent points. And with trained and experienced union reps you can have the resources and expertise to combat the unjust disciplinary actions that arise from the agency leadership's refusal to manage the agency like it's paid to do.
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Post by bobothebeaten on Jul 26, 2013 21:11:44 GMT -5
I GIVE Up!!!!!! YOU GUYs are just Not Getting the Point, So I hope you wake up one day and get the money training and Respect you guys deserve!!!! You gave up on us faster than we gave up on the union.
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